Role Model Opens Up to Lena Dunham About Fame and Male Loneliness

LENA DUNHAM: Oh, em gee. Tuck Tuck.

ROLE MODEL: There’s Lena.

DUNHAM: Hi, Mr. Tucker. I’m so excited to see you. Are you in your home?

ROLE MODEL: I’m in Colorado.

DUNHAM: You’re in Colorado? What are you doing there?

ROLE MODEL: I’m here for fun. Just getting lost out here. I love it.

DUNHAM: I know you love nature boy things. Are you doing nature boy things?

ROLE MODEL: I am. I’ve been fishing and hiking every day.

DUNHAM: I’m excited to interview you now, in an official capacity. I get to ask all the questions I’ve always wanted to ask but I’ve always been too afraid.

ROLE MODEL: [Laughs] This is the perfect opportunity.

DUNHAM: Tuck Tuck, I realized the last time we were on Zoom together we were preparing for your screen test for the movie.

ROLE MODEL: I know. Isn’t that crazy? It’s giving me a little bit of PTSD.

DUNHAM: [Laughs] Those Zooms were so fun for me. I was loving meeting my new friend, and I felt so bonded to you. You were dealing with the terror of putting yourself out there creatively and the possibility of rejection, so I’m remembering really sweet times and you’re remembering the odd push-pull.

ROLE MODEL: Yeah, the pit in my stomach. But the ones with you were great. In the ones with 20 people in them I was just like, oh, the stress. But it was good stress. I needed it.

DUNHAM: You were saying how nervous you were about the screen test, but I tell people all the time how you got on and dazzled like a young Brad Pitt strolling in for his Thelma & Louise audition. No biggie.

ROLE MODEL: Thank you.

DUNHAM: But we’re not here today to talk about your exceptional work as an actor. We’re here to talk about your new album. You know I was a longtime fan before coming to the table, but I was shy because I felt like I was too old to be a fan.

ROLE MODEL: You’re 25?

DUNHAM: Twenty-six now.

ROLE MODEL: That’s right at the top of my demographics. I feel like that’s still fine.

DUNHAM: When you made your first album, before the current stressed-out literary girl style, how did girls dress at your shows?

ROLE MODEL: I don’t think there was a dress code then. The dress code thing kind of started with my last album, Kansas Anymore. It was cowboy boots and gingham. There must be a point you hit where people start planning their outfits together.

DUNHAM: Based on some of your videos, they might’ve donned an Aritzia puffer and a tube top.

ROLE MODEL: Totally. Aritzia should have sponsored my early tours.

DUNHAM: I feel that. I came to your album before I met you. It’s my psych-up music. What excites me about you is I feel like you are never content to sit on your laurels. The new album is not just a new energy, but a new identity. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

ROLE MODEL: I think people know this by now, but I love to create little personas to separate myself from the internet a little.

DUNHAM: You’d be a really good SNL host because you love little characters and bits.

ROLE MODEL: I would love that. Before this it was just on the internet, but then I was like, “This would be cool to apply to an album.” Not in a concept album-y way, because I’m not making up stories about a fictional person, but—

DUNHAM: Like when Garth Brooks became Chris Gaines.

ROLE MODEL: [Laughs] Exactly. Other country artists have done that in recent years too, creating a persona onstage. But I was thinking bigger picture, using this Chuck Timely guy to represent the themes of time and male loneliness.

DUNHAM: It’s an epidemic.

ROLE MODEL: Literally. Our goal was always to make the world fall in love with Chuck, because that would be his happy ending.

DUNHAM: You had a previous alter ego called Saint Laurent Cowboy, which I think really confused some people. They truly believed a guy who looked like you was arguing with you on the internet.

ROLE MODEL: Yeah. I was home and my dad was telling me a story about his friend who came up to him at some sporting event and was like, “There’s this guy on the internet who’s being a fucking asshole to your son, and he’s talking all this shit.” And my dad was like, “You’re not going to believe this. That’s him. Dumbass.”

DUNHAM: [Laughs] “I know it’s shocking because they look and dress exactly alike.”

ROLE MODEL: I can’t fathom not understanding that. But to someone who has zero idea who I am, sure.

DUNHAM: People aren’t always reading for comprehension on the internet, we’ve learned. But that was when I truly decided you had an actor inside of you. You did one where you were talking about how everyone should come to your show and not his show, and that you were going to Harry Styles–blow everybody’s back out. I was like, “This is the funniest person I’ve ever seen in my entire life, and I need him on my team.”

ROLE MODEL: [Laughs] I remember you telling me that, and I hope people on the internet will be inspired to hear that’s how you found me.

DUNHAM: I always say it’s the good thing that came out of TikTok.

ROLE MODEL: He’s talking about an album blowing your back out and then we put him in a movie with Natalie Portman. [Laughs]

DUNHAM: Yeah. I think he needs to romantically seduce Natalie Portman on the screen. That could happen to you, if you just keep your ambitions high. So, Chuck. He’s not a menace like Saint Laurent Cowboy. Tell me a little about Chuck.

ROLE MODEL: I made a lot of enemies with the Saint Laurent Cowboy thing. This time we talked about Chuck every day as if he was a real person. In the studio, we’d reference him and be like, “This is such a Chuck guitar sound. These are very Chuck drums. What kind of car does Chuck drive?”

DUNHAM: It was very WWCD—what would Chuck do?

ROLE MODEL: Exactly. We wrote it on stickies in the studio. That felt more fun than just an internet character. It was someone we could reference and talk about in the studio.

DUNHAM: Is Chuck a sad boy?

ROLE MODEL: I describe him as very pathetic in the most charming way.

DUNHAM: Like the kind of guy who in a movie wants to go on a date but loses his wallet, then loses his car so he’s walking across town alone late at night and he missed the date and the girl thinks he bailed on her, so he’s crying in the street kind of energy?

ROLE MODEL: Yeah. [Laughs] God, you can just write movies off the top of your head. That’s exactly it. I had to be careful with the male loneliness thing, because there’s a negative connotation there, especially now.

DUNHAM: Well, men can be lonely and not be incels.

ROLE MODEL: Yeah, exactly.

DUNHAM: We can also recognize that even though men have a lot of power in the world, they can still feel pain. It took me a while to figure that out, but it turns out it’s true.

ROLE MODEL: He’s a sensitive guy and he doesn’t need to take it out on anyone. He has a pen and paper and he can write little songs about it, instead of being aggro.

DUNHAM: Does Chuck live now or in another time?

ROLE MODEL: We decided he’s a bit of a time traveler. We referenced Forrest Gump in a lot of ways, always having him in the background of these important moments. Like in the back of the room at Abbey Road with the Beatles, but also with Prince and Britney Spears. Now for some reason he’s obsessed with Olivia Rodrigo. It’s like he’s been there the whole time.

DUNHAM: He’s been all over the place, at the edge of culture. When you were writing, forgive me if I’m being too literal, were you writing as Chuck, or as Tucker with a Chuck-spiration?

ROLE MODEL: I came up with the Chuck thing three-quarters of the way through and I never used it to write songs. But for producing, Chuck helped us create a sound that came from someone who had always been everywhere and brought in little things from every era.

DUNHAM: When I make a movie, I always have a syllabus of things I’ve been thinking about, things I’ve been watching, things I’ve been reading. That doesn’t mean everybody else has to engage with them, but it’s a way to bring everybody into the tone. Did any albums or people or things serve as landmarks for you?

ROLE MODEL: Before any music was made, I made a very clear mood board. Then I made a playlist, and we used those two guides the whole time. I had a weird obsession with Paul Newman. I don’t know if he’s a bad guy—I know nothing about him, but I loved his look and his glasses.

DUNHAM: Paul Newman is not a bad guy.

ROLE MODEL: He’s not a bad guy?

DUNHAM: No. First, Paul Newman was the first person to bring healthy organic foods to the American people. Second, he used the profits to start a series of summer camps for kids with illnesses and special needs.

ROLE MODEL: Really?

DUNHAM: Really. Third, there’s a documentary about him and his wife. Yes, he was a bit of a naughty cheater, but it was a different time. We’re not holding that against him because he brought so much to American cinema, he was extremely charitable, and everybody contains multitudes.

ROLE MODEL: That makes me feel really good. I knew none of that.

DUNHAM: It’s my honor to be able to tell you. So Paul Newman was all over your mood board. Love.

ROLE MODEL: Yeah, that was visually. I probably told you this on set, but musically, that was probably prime time for my little yacht rock phase. I was obsessed with yacht rock for a moment.

DUNHAM: I remember I said, “What’s going to be going on with your next album?” And you just looked over at me and said, “yacht rock.” I was like, “Tuck, you never stop blowing my mind.” [Laughs]

ROLE MODEL: I scared a lot of people.

DUNHAM: I really thought you were committing to yacht rock.

ROLE MODEL: I had the hardest time talking about it in the early stages, but the only thing I loved about yacht rock was the keys. I took the keys from there and the drums from [Bruce] Springsteen, adding some electric guitar from Jackson Browne, and then trying to bring some of Madonna’s danceability.

DUNHAM: Which Madonna era are we talking? Are we talking Like a Virgin or are we talking Ray of Light?

ROLE MODEL: Her self-titled.

DUNHAM: When I was a kid, I had a cassette tape of “Borderline.” I used to get up on a little rock in my grandparents’ backyard and sing what I thought was “Like a Version.” My mother never corrected me. Until I was 15, I thought the song was about being different versions of yourself.

ROLE MODEL: Oh. That’s kind of beautiful though.

DUNHAM: I was like, “It makes total poetic sense to me. I’m this version, I’m that version.” Then I found out no, it’s, “You make me feel like a virgin who has not yet had my hymen broken.” That’s what the song is about.

ROLE MODEL: One time I called my mom a pussy when I didn’t know what that meant. I’ve never seen her so shocked and confused.

DUNHAM: What did you think it meant?

ROLE MODEL: I don’t know. I think I heard it in a Lil Wayne song.

DUNHAM: Did you think it was negative or did you think it was more fun?

ROLE MODEL: No, I thought it was fun.

DUNHAM: That’s so cute.

ROLE MODEL: I was probably too old to not know what that meant. But anyway.

DUNHAM: I remember once saying to my father, “If you’re going to get randy with me, I’m going to get randy with you.” And he was like, “What are you talking about?” I thought it meant aggressive and he was like, “That’s not what randy means. Randy has a sex connotation.”

ROLE MODEL: I’ve never heard that.

DUNHAM: I thought it was like, “Don’t you dare sass me, sir, because I will sass you back.” He lost his mind laughing. But okay, you were thinking about all these different pieces that inspired you, and on your first single we got to hear what that sounds like cohesively. What’s amazing is it sounds like something that should have always existed.

ROLE MODEL: Well, thank you. Again, those keys were very Doobie Brothers and Hall and Oates-inspired, but going a little more Southern rock. Every song is sort of a weird cocktail.

DUNHAM: What themes were you were grappling with? One of the things I love about your last album is I feel like it’s a lot about finding yourself lonely in the center of a crowd. Now that I know you, it feels like you’re processing being in Los Angeles and starting to have this life making music. And yes, it’s about relationships, but I actually think it’s about something much deeper than that, which is trying to figure out where you belong.

 

ROLE MODEL: I think you hit it on the head. Kansas Anymore was definitely a heartbreak album, exploring themes of loneliness through the lens of heartbreak. But I worked on this one during a two-year span of being single. It was a lot about feeling lost and constantly having these crisis moments of “Where do I belong?” I’m at an age where people are getting married and friends are falling in love and taking next steps. I was stuck in time and things were moving past me.

DUNHAM: You’re the exact age I was when I started to go to 1,000 weddings a year. I was close enough to the person to be happy for them, but not close enough to have any realistic understanding of their relationship. It’s a strange moment, especially if you work in entertainment. The amount of life you miss, your friends’ lives, because you’re on tour or on set. A lot of my friends were working jobs where they could meet for dinner every day and suddenly I missed this huge chunk of their lives. I’d be like, “Wait, you’re ready to have children?”

ROLE MODEL: Yeah, it’s tough. I identify with that too. All my friends work and have real jobs, so they’re free on the weekends. You have Monday through Friday being by yourself, whether you’re working or not, being in your head. I went to my first wedding as an adult last year. I immediately wrote a song about it and it’s on the album.

DUNHAM: Was that your brother’s wedding?

ROLE MODEL: No, it was my bandmate’s wedding and then my sister’s wedding. They were back-to-back.

DUNHAM: So feeling like you’re floating between life phases is a theme. I feel like you did a lot during that time. Your career changed. You got your first house.

ROLE MODEL: Yeah. I think my career reaching a new place while making the album was very overwhelming. You’re feeling lost and stagnant, but you also can’t really do anything about it because you’re on the road or working. Obviously any songwriter is going to be overly dramatic, but it does feel that way.

DUNHAM: I realized I wasn’t a poet because every time I read my serious poetry at a reading, people would laugh. So I was like, “Okay, I guess I’m going to write comedy, because that seems to be what’s happening whenever I have a feeling.” But there’s something about songwriting’s purity of expression that I will never not be jealous of. I also love that you write about emotionally acute subjects, but you’re also still funny. It’s not like you’re a funny person who’s writing a sad song. You stay funny.

ROLE MODEL: I think you did that with Girls. Things that feel extremely dramatic in the moment but obviously aren’t, especially from an outside perspective.

DUNHAM: Yes. Well, I’m a forever Role Model diva, but before this interview ends, I have to confront you about something.

ROLE MODEL: Oh god, here we go.

DUNHAM: You got me addicted to Zyn.

ROLE MODEL: I was going to ask you if you were still doing it. I was genuinely curious. That was going to be my first question when we got on the phone.

DUNHAM: Because as you know, I had a journey with vaping. Thank you Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers, for telling me the dangers of the vape. But one day I was in a store and I thought, “You know what Tucker’s into? Zyn. You know what I’m going to try? Zyn.” And now I wake up thinking about Zyn and I go to sleep thinking about Zyn.

ROLE MODEL: Look at us. But you know what? It is better. I know everyone’s like, “They’re all the same.” It is better.

DUNHAM: They’re not all the same. I tell everyone, “Do not get addicted to nicotine, but if you’re going to use nicotine, it’s all about Zyn.”

ROLE MODEL: I’m with you.

DUNHAM: Sort of like when people are like, “Here’s a healthier alternative. I drink one glass of wine without tannins a week,” or whatever. There’s a better way to do everything, and this is it.

ROLE MODEL: Everyone needs a little something and that’s our little something. And it’s okay.

DUNHAM: Everyone needs a little something. Anyway Tuck, I’m so excited about the album. I’m so excited for people to hear the special song you made for our movie.

ROLE MODEL: I know. I can’t wait for people to see the movie.

DUNHAM: I can’t wait for the press tour because it means I get to hang out with you and also that I get to offload doing press to a charismatic young person, which has been a dream forever.

ROLE MODEL: I’m here for you.

DUNHAM: People used to think of me as the cool young person. That was a long time ago, and your day has come.

ROLE MODEL: I’m ready, I think.